RIPE 91
Main hall
23 October 2025
RIPE Community Plenary
4 p.m.
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MIRJAM KUHNE: Before we start I have a few announcements to make for the organisation. Please don't forget to vote for the Programme Committee, you can still vote until 5 o'clock, so another hour. If you are registered to vote for the NRO NC elections, please do so and you can do that until Friday morning 9 o'clock. Tonight for the dinner, the buses will leave from the hotel entrance at ten past seven, twenty past seven and half past seven. And please rate the talks. It's important we want to know your feedback.
That's all in terms of the logistics, that's it.
Let's dive right in to the topics, to the session. My name is still Mirjam Kuhne, I am the RIPE Chair at this point in time.
This is the agenda. I'll give you a quick update of what we have been doing since the last RIPE meeting. We have a bunch of short presentations from people after that. I'll introduce you to them when we, as we go along. Then we hopefully will have some time for AOB also at the end of the session.
So, what have we been doing over the last few months?
I am just ‑‑ activities, you can also follow us, follow our updates on the RIPE Labs blog, we update roughly every month and I will tell you what we have been busy with. We have closely following the activities of our NRO NC, I have been attending the meetings, supported our NC members also and kind of watched the process and saw how they incorporated all the feedback received from the community. Then, we have also continued to work on the ‑‑ Angela reported back from this also in the Address Policy Working Group ‑‑ continued to work with the RIPE NCC on reviewing the policy documents and make sure they are easy and accessible. So that's an ongoing process. The same for the RIPE document store. I have been working with the RIPE NCC staff, and maybe some of you have seen this fantastic presentation in Address Policy, where Ilke has presented preliminary kind of results of what she found in terms of policy documents in the larger RIPE document store, and I'm really happy that she is diving into this, so we continue to work on that.
As usual, we have also kind of participated in other events. I presented at the CA PIV and I was promoting RIPE and making sure people were aware of us and the RIPE community and know how to participate. I also work very closely, and was also was very much involved in the new fellowship programme that Clara is going to talk to you more about. And of course over the last few weeks, we started kind of the handover to the next RIPE Vice‑Chair and next RIPE Chair team.
Just to make you aware. You might have seen some balloons outside, the RIPE NCC is really proud of celebrating 30 years of training, we have also done this with the help of of the community. Any of you who have hosted training courses or in other locations, and please let the RIPE NCC know the topics you are interested in, or just give them some feedback in general.
I still remember I was one of the first 95 who participated, one of the trainers that started this programme, but that was in my previous life.
I want to make this point to you because I know there was some concerns at some point about the planning cycles for the RIPE meetings, and we really, the RIPE NCC events team, together with the RIPE Chair team, have worked on having a longer planning cycle, so we have the dates actually until I think RIPE 100 already on the website that you can see there on the link announced so you can already plan ahead. You find the dates we'll always put the locations there as soon as we have it confirmed and signed and nailed down so the next two locations are already decided and then we are working on the next two after that. Then, I hope you'll come and join us in Edinburgh.
I wanted to ask you, I brought this up here because I spoke to the RIPE NCC and we organised childcare for a long time now, this was originally an initiative by the diversity task force and the idea was to encourage people to, or to make it easier for people with children to come to the RIPE community and sometimes you know your partner is in the industry and one of us has to stay at home. So we facilitated childcare I think as one of the first communities who provided this. It was taken up quite well at the beginning. But the last few meetings not so much anymore, and it's costly, and we'd love to continue to provide this, but I would really like to hear from you, not now, but in general, also maybe you can provide feedback to the RIPE NCC maybe you are not aware of it, are you considering maybe bringing children next time, is there something we could change or do differently? Something that could help us to figure out if there is still a useful service for the community to continue.
Then, kind of jumping around the topics here. I was asked by the Board of the Rob Blokzijl Foundation to make you aware of this programme. And for those of you who don't know, Rob Blokzijl was our RIPE Chair team for the first 25 years of this community, and in his name we set up a foundation and an award for people every two years or so, to award people in the community who have supported others in the community and helped others to flourish like Rob did. And so there is a website here. You can find more information. At this point in time, the Rob Blokzijl foundation, this was the last awardee on the page I think in Rome I think that was. So the next step that the Rob Blokzijl Foundation would like to ask you to volunteer for the nominating committee. So not necessarily the awards, but they need a committee to then award, find a person for the next time and they would like to hand out that award next year. So, if you already have some ideas, they are also happy to get that input. But as the first step they need to put together an Awards Committee, and we need to you volunteer for that.
And that's it from me. At this point actually my term as RIPE Chair from 2020 to 2025 ends, so I hand it over to the NomCom Chair.
JAN ZORZ: All right, I am Jan Zorz, I am still the Chair of the NomCom while it still exists. And while I'll be reading the names from the NomCom members, I would like to ask all the members if you are in the room to come here on stage.
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There are some presents that are being delivered. Well, would I like to thank the NomCom and the voting members and non‑voting members for all the work. Also, Jean ‑‑ Daniel Pauget, Simon Leinen, Wolfgang Zenker, Dmytro Kohmanyuk, Kurt Kayser, Tobias Fiebig, Wolfgang Tremmel, Rinse Kloek, Sandoche Balekrichenan, Randy Bush and Vasja Krizmancic were the voting members. And the non‑voting members were Daniel Karrenberg, he was the previous Chair and my advisor. Liaisons were Kevin Meynell from the PC, Janos Zsako from Working Group Chairs and Sander Steffann from the RIPE NCC Board.
Thank you everyone.
(Applause)
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So, currently we are Chairless. Are you all waiting for the new names? Right. So, first when we went through this process, there are some recommendations for the community, what to change for the next NomCom process. Please make continuously everyone aware that the RIPE discussion list is, plays an important role in this process. There should be some more discussion on the mailing list. People did not get very involved on the mailing list.
Also consider making an even stronger effort to build awareness about when the next round of the NomCom process takes place and to start this effort earlier. I had a feeling that if I, as a Chair, would have more time to prepare all these because it's a long process, it needs to be followed to a letter, and if I would have more time, we could do much more on the awareness side of the process.
We had quite a diverse list of volunteers, but unfortunately the algorithm and the lotteries picked the numbers that basically avoided every mail from that list. That was unfortunate, but it was what it was. We ran the process and that was the outcome. But please make some effort to make this list of volunteers more diversified. So we need more people to volunteer, we selected from the list of 52 people. If we would have more people there, maybe the result would be different.
The recommendations were published as a RIPE document. And it's also available on the RIPE NomCom site.
Without further ado. I would like to welcome back Mirjam Kuhne as the RIPE Chair for the new term.
(Applause)
And Anna Wilson as the Vice‑Chair. Thank you.
(Applause)
STENOGRAPHER: Nice to see we have the women running the show!
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JAN ZORZ: Thank you to Niall.
MIRJAM KUHNE: We need an Irish person to read this out please.
Go raith maith agat.
MIRJAM KUHNE: I want to say a few words about Niall obviously. I am so grateful Niall was on my side. We didn't know each other when we started as a RIPE Chair team, and it was during Covid so we didn't have a chance to meet in person. It took a year‑and‑a‑half, I think, until the Berlin meeting, when we were actually together at the first time face‑to‑face. And I was so glad to have Niall on my side. I don't think I could have done it without Niall. So I would dearly miss you as my Vice‑Chair on this side and I would like to thank you very much for all the service that you have done and you put a lot of effort and time into this.
(Applause)
(For those not in the hall, there is a standing ovation for Niall.)
JAN ZORZ: With that my assignment is done. Thank you very much.
NIALL O'REILLY: Happily we're short of time, because it's an emotional moment. I want to say thank you to all of you for the support that I felt in performing this role in the last five years. Thank you especially to Mirjam, and congratulations to Anna who will do a much better job than I did.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks Niall. I will really miss Niall and I am also looking forward working with Anna as my Vice‑Chair from now on. So with this handover, kind of, you know, I don't know, this is it. So, from now on we have like me as the Chair and Anna as the Vice‑Chair and thanks again Niall, and we'll move on with the programme as scheduled on the agenda. So that's it. That's a little ceremony.
Next presentation will from Laura, to talk about the new fellowship programme.
LAURA LORENZO: What a moment. Good afternoon. How are we? I am emotional. Very much. And it is my honour to be here before you to present the new RIPE fellowship programme. For those who know me, we met for the first time at RIPE 90 in Lisbon, which to my surprise I fell in love with you. I know. I didn't expect that routing security or Internet governance could be love material, I am still processing.
There I was facilitating a session with our friend Dinesh, who is around on the mentoring programme. As you know, if you were there, I would never start the probably without commending the work that has been done. This project, the RIPE fellowship programme, will not be any different.
I would like to share this picture with you. The RIPE fellowship programme has a purpose to bring new voices in this design to a RIPE meeting. To make it as diverse as possible and to remove the financial barrier. And I don't know you, but this picture is amazing. So the programme since it was launched in 2017 was able to bring and cover half of the service region, and, you know, as good as I do, how difficult that is. But, if Stephen should be here, certainly he will ask, Stephen, I see you! What about impact? And impact in the context of the RIPE fellowship would be how many of these new voices that came to the RIPE meeting stayed, found their voice, became active? Well maybe the picture would not be as widespread as this one. Although we have very good examples here today and presenting.
So, we want to make sure that those new voices that come to the community, not necessarily to a meeting, to the community, stay. Find their voice, revalue, help us and challenge us and brings this thing that that is the human fabric of the Internet still resilient and future ready.
So how do we do that? Well we need to design, go to design to the table and do a complete revamp. For that, in my opinion, we need to understand you. And well it's obvious you are a tech community, check! You are driven by passion, check! You love challenges, check? You are engineers, right. And last but not least, which is the biggest one, you don't want to be told how to do things, correct? Yeah, I know that.
So, that's interesting because then how do we work with this? Well what if we transformed the fellowship into an adventure. An adventure that you decide your own path. Interesting.
And we did it within a specific time frame. The last four months. It goes beyond attending a RIPE meeting, it starts way before that, three months before that. And it's four months because in the ongoing research process that we are to understand the newcomers, which is our target audience, primarily the target audience, we learn that yes, they are new in the community, but not new in the industry. And that gives us a huge opportunity to have a huge impact and success in accomplish what we aim to do, that is that they find their voice in the community.
So as any good adventure, it would be nice if we have a good partner. So at this point I would like our RIPE fellow coaches on here to stand up. They are our first RIPE fellow coaches, but please join me in applause because they are helping us.
(Applause) thank you so much. They are, the RIPE fellow coach, we got inspiration from the mentoring programme, you have seen the connection what I have been doing here. We brought the magic of the mentoring programme, which I love it as well, and the roles of the mentors is to help the fellows to find their voice here and they do it by helping them design the personal learning path. What is that? Well, the personal learning path is the intersection between passion, so why they really want could accomplish the fellows, and they tell us that in the application form that has been completely redesigned as well, to redistill what is ambition, what they are interested about, what do they want to collaborate with us, and we do by intersecting with our interests as a community, which are the facts.
It's in this intersection and set of activities that are well defined the RIPE fellow coaches ask questions to the fellows and the fellows, like I said it's an adventure, don't tell me how I do things. It's the fellow defines what he or she is going to accomplish during this four month period.
So, we open the call one month ahead. Why do we do that? Because as a change right now and onwards the RIPE fellowship programme will only have one call her year. So any Applicant willing to become a fellow will be asked in the context of the application which of the RIPE meetings they would like to connect their fellowship experience with.
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So, we want them to have plenty of time. And please spread the word.
Particularly on that you have here the elements and the criteria but I really want to stress attention on this. This is the application so far, it's been 16 days the call is open, so far. But so far, I don't like this picture from a gender perspective. I am sure that you agree with me. This is not even represent the RIPE community, right. So, you need to help me with in. Actually, this slide helps us to first I am presenting the problem, or the challenge, and also helps me to present you the opportunity. And what is that? If you look at this figure from the countries, if you focus on the horizontal, you will see that for the first time the top country in terms of Applicant is Iran. And there are many reasons that explains these. Many. One is that three weeks ago it was CAP and the people were a lot of the social media activity that we have down to share the call across the service region, of course. But there is also another factor that I wanted to take into account, which is that one of the founders of the INOG, mill add, which I believe may be online and hello to the people online, did a massive reach out in the community to share the news. So, the point I want to make here, and I make this, and I hope the newcomers and the veterans make this mindset yours as well, so you got the mic without questioning anything and just bring your questions, don't worry about it, which is actually my motto, the reason why I applied to this project is because yeah I am an engineer but I'm not a network engineer so I don't know anything about your industry, which is exactly what drives me to be here, the less I know about something, the more I get interested about. So, it is not a question, but actually a comment.
If I learn something in this six months about the Internet infrastructure ecosystem is that what makes it the Internet open and permissionless is not the protocols, it's not the policies, are not the wires, the cables, no. Is it it is human fabric. It is you. Each of any of you. And your agency. And that agency is developed with the connections, the communication, the capacity building. It is your ability to interact with each of any of you in your community, here, back at home.
So, if we want to nurture this that makes the Internet possible, which is the human fabric, if we really want to succeed in achieving the impact we aim with this programme, well, I just have one message for you: Help me to help you. Share the word. Please let this programme is in your community. Let it make a big success in terms of diversity. Let's make sure that we can bring a good funnel of new voices, to bring us new perspectives. So we are still resilient, capable and future ready.
Thank you very much.
(Applause)
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thank you Laura. Are there any questions? Comments, suggestions? We have maybe a minute.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: So this is not exactly a question, so it doesn't require an answer. I would like to add to initiatives like this. I think what I have noticed in the last year, that we have different groups of people that we would like to ‑‑ that we would like to bring to the RIPE meetings. So, would that mean from certain parts even of Europe but in general from our service region, we have people from countries or with jobs that they consistently cannot attend or afford to be, to come to the RIPE meetings. In other cases we have students that we'd need to upgrade into our community to ‑‑ or younger professionals that need something like the mentoring programme. And in other cases we have cases where we would like to invite and excite the wealthy RIPE NCC members to start attending the RIPE meetings and the general meetings and so on. I would just like to ‑‑ so why I am saying this, I think that initiatives like the fellowship, or similar to fellowship, should expand to more fields and have an intention with which group of people they target. This is not a question, this is a ‑‑ it's a reflection. This is perfect for a certain group of people and it's much better than what we had before, I am super happy that you did this.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thank you. Thanks again Laura.
LAURA LORENZO: Are there any comments online?
MIRJAM KUHNE: No. Thank you.
LAURA LORENZO: Okay. Thanks everyone.
(Applause)
MIRJAM KUHNE: So, next talk up.
ONDREJ CALETKA: Thank you very much. It was sort of a happy accident that I would like to share with you and I think it's nicely like goes into this line up of general answer the question how do bring more people into the RIPE community? So, let me talk about the RIPE community at WHY2025, and also tell you what is WHY2025. So the acronym stands for what hackers yearn, and it is a thing that is a camp that is happening since 1999, and it's changing name, so it's sort of like this pattern that there is always three other acronym which has aged because there has to be something be hacking. It repeats more or less every four years. And this time, 2025, there was a one in the Netherlands, and this ‑‑ before I talk about this, let's talk about hackers, because they have quite a bad reputation in general media, but who they are actually. They are people interested in tinkering with everything basically, interested in how things are working. So, these people are usually quite important for, especially for technical stuff. Usually they are not interested in your bank accounts or e‑mails, that is the media shorthand for hackers, but most of them are just interesting in knowing how things are working. Also, hackers have ‑‑ they are not respecting the normal rules, but they have their own rules like Code of Conduct which they are very strict about. So, these are let's say the general, then there are some special things that I personally have no answer for, but I find them interesting, like somehow they obsess with this drink that you don't see it anywhere else but it's like the hacker events are full of them. Also, Ikea sharks named Blahaj are like everywhere. And then, something that I tried to ‑‑ (music, Rick Ashley) ‑‑ like proper licence for this. This is what hackers are doing everywhere and every time. That's part of the spirit of any hacker event.
Okay, let's go to the serious business. How it started actually.
So we figured out that there would be this event in Netherlands in the summer, and it was really like bottom up thing from the RIPE NCC employees which some of them are part of this community, so they said hey, there will be this thing maybe we should as the RIPE NCC do something. So that started an internal chat. A few employees said I am attending. And then we like sort of asked actually the organisers approached the RIPE NCC and said, there will be a hackathon, maybe RIPE NCC would like to sponsor it. And then we went through the process, finding money, approving money, it's always hard, but it got approved finally, so we became a silver sponsor of this event.
And we said okay we are sponsoring it, but even though we are not non‑profit, the sponsoring rules are quite strict. One the rules is there has to be no branding outside of your tent. And even if you will have a village as a sponsor, you are not allowed to name your village after your brand. So it cannot be RIPE NCC village because we don't want to have brand names. We want to preserve this community spirit of this event.
So, it came up to us sport of as an accident that they said, you have to name the village as some community. Well, there is only one community that the RIPE NCC cares about, It's called RIPE community obviously. So, this also set up agenda on what are are we going to do on that event because then it was sort of obvious if we are a RIPE community event, well then we probably should tell people what the RIPE community is, we should tell them what the difference is between RIPE and RIPE NCC. By the way is there anyone who could explain what the RIPE and RIPE NCC differs in? Is there someone? Yeah, I can still see only like half of the room, and we are already through Thursday. So, in general like, RIPE without NCC doesn't employ anything, that's the thing you should know. So basically all the offices and employees and things like that, they are the RIPE NCC, because that's the corporation which is registered in the Netherlands. But the RIPE community on the other hand is the one with power that is setting up the rules. That's basically what we stride to promote. So we create a flyer, which was explaining basically RIPE and the RIPE NCC and it was saying, I really like that catch phrase, do you use the Internet? Then we are already connected. We explained how the community works, what is different. We also brought this incredible ROA, which is this guy you can actually see outside, because we first have it in RIPE 79, since that he was sitting in our office, so we brought it to the camp, and unfortunately he didn't survive that camp, but super heroes don't die, so they just reincarnate and you can see him outside now of this room. So he is back. And we also bought some fun stuff, some networking equipment, some music and videos to keep us entertained in our community tent.
So, how it went.
This is the place. This is the map of the camp. You see we somehow got assigned the loud area of the camp, I don't know why. They have ‑‑ well they didn't have experience with us. I am very calm person, I don't like loud things so for me it was quite less optimal, but that's what you get. And this was our tent from outside you can see it's very plain.
And this is from the inside. The good thing is people found us and they said that they found us because of the flyer. So actually the flyer was apparently very important. And the great thing about hackers even though they don't work for ISP, they don't, they just are interested in computers, they still were very interested in knowing this ROA because it was on this incredible guy, so how exactly does it work. They don't like say okay I'm not interested because it's not my area. They are really interested. So that was great. It also came as a surprise to most of them that they are in charge of setting the rules on the Internet. It's like not us as the RIPE NCC, it's them actually, or we all together are forming the rules and of course that the RIPE and RIPE NCC are not the same thing.
We also bring some controversy to more people. One idea was that somebody said the IPv6 was more successful as a T‑shirt brand, which is the sort of the frustration of the thing that you still buy the new products and they still have issues with IPv6 even after 25 years old. So, then we brought this towel from RIPE 72, and we said well we made it a towel brand actually. You can see that people really liked that why, liked the towel by the way. We didn't have enough of them because they are mostly gone but we also received some post saying yeah, that it's not only a T‑shirt and towel brand.
There was also some, not only Internet working but some physical networking. These hackathons had awesome network activity, So here was 400 gigs to the field. Wet 10 hundred gigs to our tent and we had on site ISP. We actually tried some new things, we Did RFC 8950, it was quite in my submission and cool, a nice experience, I really nice thing to play with during the very hot summer when you have to stay indoors.
So, we all have been there. You can also see one Board member here. Well they definitely came to consider that this was worth it also we were lucky there was no rain so we had very sunny days. And well we have sort of hoping that some of these people we talked to because they were mostly quite young people, maybe when they get their job, when they get their job, they already know and we will see them in a year or two here at the RIPE meeting, and I think that is very important. But of course it was a lot of fun as well.
That's everything from me. And in case you have any questions or comments, thank you very much.
(Applause)
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thank you so much, that was great opportunity to promote the RIPE community. Fantastic. I see two people queue up here. Anything online?
WILL VAN GULIK: I was wondering if we will see a RIPE Booth at camp, congress and all those other events because why not? I mean, they need the support and it's a place where the voice could be also interested, just saying.
ONDREJ CALETKA: That's not something I can answer. There are definitely RIPE NCC people on these events. They are not organised under their employer, but you have to go to General Meeting and you have to vote for paying more money as a membership fees if you are a member to give us money to do these things. It's actually your money after all.
WILL VAN GULIK: I would be okay but I will have to refer that to the General Meeting at some point. Thank you very much.
SANDER STEFFANN: Some Board member that was lying on the ground in the picture. I was really happily surprised to see the NCC there, and it was also really good to see like a lot of hacker spaces actually have their own ASNs. So, it was great to see the education happening, but you were also connecting to a part of the community that you probably otherwise wouldn't reach. So, I was ‑‑ I think really well done. Thank you.
URBAN SUHADOLNIK: Thank you so much to the RIPE NCC and to you, Andrei, that you do attend the hacker events and to everyone else. Hacker places are places where most talented and creative people in tech, or future tech, meet and please, please, please, please support and support them with Internet connectivity, support your local hacker spaces with funding, give them BGP connections so they can play with their ASNs, those people will help our community and each of our members in the future.
ONDREJ CALETKA: Nicely said. Thank you very much.
(Applause)
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks again. Now the next talk.
VLADISLAV BIDKOV: First, a gentle warning, this presentation and some of the pictures and names may create a reaction to people's eyes, either as an allergy or small object that could fall into their eyes. So please be careful while consuming the slides.
So, does anyone know what happened in 2015? Well, it was my RIPE meeting. There was actually I came to my first RIPE meeting by is make. I was here the weekend before the RIPE meeting for a RIPE Atlas tools hackathon. Then somehow I was motivated to come to this stage and the RIPE meeting and present something that I can do with RIPE Atlas. Then in time, who was I? A small young programmer working five years in the faculty of computer science with ten years experience, and just starting to play with RIPE Atlas two years ago.
The other idea in the bar happened after the hackathon when I was given the chance to actually continue my stay here in Bucharest at RIPE 71 in the same hotel I met a set of usual suspects, some of them are here in the room. Some of them are maybe online. Some of them are now retired. And they gave me this sentence. "You must start an IXP in Macedonia ‑‑ we will help you."
2018: We are going to now have to travel in time back and forth in time, sorry. Again, I had a chance to visit RIPE meetings. And I started to say that three years ago I started this idea, seeing things are similar.
We have a neutral entity. We have some people, knowledge, and we are already feeling the community is ready for this. We will run this IXP not for profit. We like to create a NOG, but we are missing the most important part.
Well, thanks to someone here in the room, on 9th July 2018, that's three years after this idea, miraculously this happens on my birthday, so that person has some explanation to do because it's a bit of a strange moment, we got our resources for the IXP, IPv6, IPv4 and an AS number.
We got a newborn. In the meantime, someone had his academic hat on, so he started to misuse the IXP, and as part of RACI, a wonderful initiative we have heard, started to do some research and actually started to use the IXP as the best way to keep local elections working.
RIPE 86 and 2023. Again science. After Covid, which was wonderful for IXP, finally we got all of the big players to join us. Guess why? We were attacked as a faculty quite heavily. So we had to do some tricks in our back in order to survive. We survived. We collected the botnet. These are all the providers which we had to approach, and we had to work with them. Luckily, we were part of this big Pan‑European network which allowed us to close this botnet. After this in the bad circles, we don't mess with these guys, they are very difficult to mess with.
2024, time to learn new tricks. We started experimenting in something that was quite new. DPDK. Again someone here, actually online in the audience was the usual suspect in showing us the way. We made our own development for protection. Actually, that became my master thesis.
In the meantime, IXP.mk slowly step by step, byte by byte, connection by connection, optic by optic, CDM here DVDM there, made some progress.
We made a promise made ten years ago a reality. We have all the major IXPs peered, we finally decided to take new approaches, and we passed our wonderful 10 gig barrier.
We start to look like a real IXP under the faculty umbrella and we still have some plans for us.
This is our traffic. I am sorry that you only see this image but the initial presentation was 100 slides and I was politely asked to shorten it for a ten minute slot.
Why?
In the next slides I'll tell you why. In the next slides I am going to show you why this presentation is important. It's not just IXP.mk, it's not just Vladislav having fun with RIPE Atlas probe hacking. I do have two firsts, together with another person in the room, I made the first 3G probe, together with the same person I made the first virtual probe or hackathons, we now have virtual probes and virtual anchors, right. It's not just making a change in the region. It's you.
Who are the people in the room? Part of them. I'd like to thank them because ten years ago they gave me the motivation, the chance to show how this community can be welcoming for someone who was pretty surprised, fresh on the meeting he never heard about.
Also, what are the next steps?
We need to do more as a community. We need to collaborate more. We are all right collaborating but we need to do more. We need to expire. I met this nice youngster from Belgium in Rotterdam in RIPE and he was doing a business in connectivity, and in our land only when he was 16 years old, and he became a friend. We need to get talent to the first RIPE meeting, but then we need to keep them, at least every two years or something. Don't be afraid to wear many hats. It's fun in this great community.
We are on a good path actually. This is what I see today. This is what I saw this week. I think we are comfortable that we have a bright future for us.
And why I can say this. Well, I wear a bit of a few hats. You see the ones which are RIPE connected. And the trick is out of the bag, my last affiliation was already shown on a picture, but I also volunteered to become a RIPE fellow coach because of this. By the way when I first came here as something ten years ago, that was two years before fellowship in RIPE NCC, so I would say I am experienced in the job.
Thank you RIPE community. This is on you.
(Applause)
And as promised one minute and 30 seconds for questions, comments, tomatoes and other stuff on this stage.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks so much for sharing your experience, that was wonderful. Are there any questions or comments, suggestions?
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: I am just here for proxying because there was a name of my lovely colleague on the slide, who was registering the IP addresses for your IXP, and he is saying you are welcome.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks again, and I hope to see you at many more RIPE meetings in the future.
Now, next talk, a colleague from IANA, to give you an update on IANA. It's her first RIPE meeting.
MARILIA HIRANO: Hi. Hello everyone. My name is Marilia Hirano, I am IANA's director of strategic programmes, and I am here today to talk a bit about what our priorities are. But before we get to that, I just wanted to ‑‑ I don't like to assume ‑‑ before we get to the meat of it, a show of hands if anybody is not familiar with the work IANA does and how we service the numbers community. Great. This is going to go fast.
All right. So, just, I am going to go through these two slides quickly on servicing the numbers community, just a quick reminder of what it is that we do for you guys.
And the point here, everybody is aware of this EU just will touch on the last bullet that we do facilitate requests for special purpose allocations at the request of standards organisations such as the IETF, but those requests are are driven by RFCs, or policies, but for the most part, it's the allocations that IANA makes are to the RIRs and not directly.
Then, beyond numbers, this is the full scope of the IANA services. So, the names and the protocol parameter functions, we manage the DNS root zone and we also work with the IETF on defining and helping define new standards and maintaining all the registries that documents your identifiers and we assign and maintain all of those registries.
So I think this is a pretty quick overview, because the next slides we'll talk about what the priorities are. It's going to touch on all of these functions so I wanted to make sure I just quickly went over ‑‑
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So, first, we have next round of gTLDs. The work we're going to do over the next couple of years is getting our systems ready for temporary delegations as well as variants. The temporary delegation it is a step within the programme that is required due to the names collision, part of it. And then other policy implementation work also is in the naming function includes the ccTLD review mechanism and also the changes to the ccTLD strings and variance policy that is currently to be approved by the ICANN Board.
Lastly, we're investigating potential work for IANA to participate in RPKI for reserved or special use space. So, those are the policy driven priorities.
The next I have the images here, I am pretty sure a lot of you are familiar with the IANA .org, our website, and if you are, you'll understand why this is shall we have named this the IANA website modernisation, we basically are trying to bring it to this era. We are planning on delivering a new design and structure for the website, make it more user friendly. One example in the registry space, there is no search functionality, so it's not as easy to find a specific registry, so that's something we're working on improving for this next cycle.
We're also planning on improving system responsiveness and experience for our global audience and developing and publishing content that supports user work flow. So we want to make sure that it's easy to find, to guide users to find the procedures, what it takes to apply for, or to make changes to an existing registry and we want to make sure that that's all within the registry. So that's the work that's been going on to modernise the website in addition to all the new layouts and we want to make it look like it belongs in 2025. You'll see how the graph there looks like today. That's a key priority. It's been going on for the last couple of years.
Then on data publication enhancements. We ‑‑ there is a first call to action here. There will be a few of them during this presentation. We are ‑‑ we have a beta version for registry datasets will be available in other formats. So, we can expect to see JSON across all registries including the top level domain registry. So if you want to play around with it and see, there is an option there that you can provide your feedback on IANA@IANA.org, so if you go to that link, you'll be able to test it out.
Then publication of .arpa domains in the RDAP bootstrap is the other piece that is being worked on as ICANN plans to sunset Whois, the technical services team is working on that and we can talk about if you have questions after the session.
Next is updating the key. So, we're currently undertaking the second key rollover of the KSK. It's establishing a 3 year rollover cycle, and it's planned to happen on ‑‑ scheduled for October 11th of 2026, with the potential algorithm change in 2027.
Then here, we'll have a little bit more information on that if you are interested in participating in this work.
So first I will talk about the DNS trust anchor availability. This is my crypto team, I made sure that this was here and I reminded you of. The trust anchor is available for distribution. It's been published since January. Well most of it will be adopted automatically, but we also ask operators to monitor that your systems have adopted the new key.
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Then back to the algorithm rollover that I mentioned, there is a proposal to change the root zone KSK algorithm, and we will have a public comment period set to open February 2026 on all the details on how that proposal will be implemented. This is based on a study that was conducted by community experts and published in 2024. We're now basically implementing the recommendations from that study, and that's what the proposal will include, if you are interested, don't hesitate in participates and we really want to hear what your thoughts are. Another callout from my team is for those, especially for those of you who have not taken part in this work so far, you are impacted by this and this is part of your work space that you do review it and give us feedback.
Okay. So I just wanted to bring this all together now, and this is part of our IANA 2030 strategy. So, in July of this are year, we contradicted off the fiscal year '26 through '30 IANA strategy, and these strategic plan is focussed on three areas. So, innovation, operational excellence, and community engagement. And the activities that I just mentioned here, they touch on one of these pillars, each of them has a strategic objects and KPIs attached to them, and we do breakdown the work on how we're going to achieve those through our annual operating plan and budget processes that happen concurrently with the ICANN plans.
So, other call to action in this one is we are going to open the public comment for the IANA operating plan an for the ICANN operating plan. If you want to learn more about what we're doing both in comments on these priorities if you think that, you rereview the plan and you think there is stuff missing and we need to focus on other things, that's what that period is for. You also get to see how much all of this costs. So, please participate. I have links to the 2030 strategy and I also have the link to the current operating plan and budget for those who are not familiar.
I just wanted to plug here that yesterday, when I was listening to Hans present on the pillars of the RIPE strategy, it was very reassuring to me, as an IANA staff member, that it alliance so well with where RIPE is headed and where you see yourselves in the future going into your new strategic plan and where our priorities lie. So, I felt like it was very closely aligned and that is reassurance that our collaborative efforts and that touches on community engagement, you know, broaden our, and deepen our stakeholder relationships, bringing in fresh blood and trying to make them stay and participate in this ecosystem. It's all priorities that we share and it was very inspiring to hear that as we continue to move forward with our plans.
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So, with that, I just want you to ‑‑ by my last callout here of please let us know how we did. If there are topics that you would like IANA to come bring to you in any other venues, this survey is a one question survey, and then it allows you to provide any other topics also that you would like the IANA team to present to you. Then NRO NC and ASO AC will be invited to participate in our annual survey which just new for those who have been participating every year for at least the eleven years that I have been with the team, it's now only three questions, it's not 17 anymore, so if that gives you a little motivation for those of you in the NRO NC and ASO AC, it's only three questions now, so you'll get an e‑mail to participate.
Thank you very much. I think that was all I had.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thank you. Always interesting to hear an update from time from our Stakeholder organisation. Are there any questions.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Hi. I just wanted to say this is not a question, I just wanted to say to the audience here that I have been around for longer than I'd like to know and I have spent the last five years on various reviewing committees reviewing IANA and their technical and their administrative work. And if there is any part of this internet administration anywhere that just works, it's the IANA.
LAURA LORENZO: We can't do it alone. It's a collaborative effort. Thank you.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks again. Hope you enjoy the rest of the RIPE meeting, your first RIPE meeting after 11 years. Last, but certainly not least we have an update from the NRO NC, Herve Clement, Constanze Buerger, Andrei Robachevsky, please, I don't know how you want to do the dance, it's up to you. Give an update on the current developments, and also especially a summary of what came out of the BoF on Monday.
HERVE CLEMENT: Thank you Mirjam. Good afternoon all. Thank you first for the presentation from the IANA, which is a function absolutely we are well aware, and so we are well noted the invitation for the survey. We'll do.
After that, so you heard a lot about ICP 2 this week, with a BoF on Monday, with the presentation during the policy Working Group this morning. To be diverse in terms of presentation, I will then give the floor to Andrei to present, it will be the outputs of the BoF that most of you participated in last Monday, and thank you very much. I wanted to say that the topic that will be presented only the topic discussed during the BoF. Of course during the mailing list in other regions there are a lot of other topics. Of course we will analyse them carefully, but that will be the scope of the presentation of today, so one more time the consultation is open till November 7th, so don't hesitate to participate and to read, and with that, I will give you the floor. We had the great support from the legal and the communication team of the RIPE NCC to present the slide of today.
ANDREI ROBACHEVSKY: Thank you, Herve, for this introduction. Very quick recap of the BoF that we had on Monday. Thank you for participating. There are several issues raised and we just want to go through them. Again our role here is not to argue or defend the document, at most what we can do is clarify why certain things were in the document, but we are taking this feedback on board and we are going back to the bigger Council where we are going to discuss and reach consensus on how this input is going to be addressed. But thank you, this input is very important. That's the only way we can improve the document.
So, issues were raised again about unanimity of the decision making process, and there was three aspects of this issue. One was raised is that it might happen that an RIR is unable to express their opinion for whatever reason, maybe a governance problem for instance. It might happen that what happens if there is a conflict of interest, and there will be a conflict of interest for sure, because right now the whole globe is being served, so part of the region will go to a new area if this new area is created. And there was some concerns about competitive law. I think regarding competitive law, we know that RIPE NCC is carrying out a legal review and once that is done, I think RIPE NCC is prepared to publish or probably all the RIRs will discuss this and publish this.
There was also a question okay, if not unanimity, what are the alternatives? And of course we know that in our community, we prefer consensus. Now the way of this operates where each RIR independently submits their response to the recognition or de‑recognition proposal. Consensus is really possible, there is no really discussion, it's binary choices yes or no. But, yeah, thank you for this feedback. We will certainly take this on board.
One thing I wanted to say that compared to the previous version of the document, changes were made to soften unanimity requirements. So it's no the that we're not listening to you, we'll listen to you and if you read the document carefully about the process of recognition, there is an opportunity for appeal, and reconsideration where an opinion under certain conditions of one RIR can be overridden. So, we will discuss nevertheless this unanimity again request, and hopefully address this.
Very important issue was raised that we not only we need to start a new series because ICP series is discontinued, but also we need to preserve continuity, and this continuity, so ICP 2, the original version of the document should not be lost somewhere in web archives, but should be findable and maybe even part of the new series, as well as the process and the context that we used in developing this version of the document.
Finding the right level of detail. I think through all our work we see this, and people say yes, okay, but how really that will be implemented. They have certain scenarios in mind, and they are trying to run how this document will guide through those scenarios.
It's difficult. I think we always try to balance the document cannot go too much into detail to be too rigid to be useful, but at the same time indeed it should provide some guidance. So we hear on both sides. On one side we hear how this nitty gritty detail in that particular scenario should work out, probably should include this in the document. On the other side we see people, oh don't over engineer. Trust the system. When things come and implementation procedures are developed, it will become more clear. But set the boundary conditions right and very clear.
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For instance, there was a concern that yeah, if you bring too much into implementation procedures and it takes long in time to develop those implementation procedures, we are kind of in a limbo, we cannot move because the document doesn't provide enough guidance and implementation procedures are not there yet. To this, I just want to mention that there is a grace period already defined in the document which is three years under which all RIRs need to be compliant. Now, this compliance also means that all implementation procedures, including those how compliance is measured, should be ready and adopted. So there is a time frame, there is a deadline, a clear deadline where implementation procedures should be in place. So in three years at maximum we should be all set, the whole package should be ready.
I think I am repeating here that at Meta level, high level, that's one the challenges that we experienced and we're working and we're looking for your guidance. What level of detail this document should have. And both extremes are not acceptable, so we are trying to find something in the middle.
So, I mentioned the window, also please read the assessment that NRO has published, that's an interesting insight of the NRO side or the RIR side how these requirements could be implemented and how that could be ‑‑ what impact that could have on the RIRs and RIR system.
There was a question, although NIRs are out of scope of this document, which is clearly stated in the document itself, there was a question whether NIR gets any special status, and whether NIR or group of NIR is the power how an area can be created. And I think the same person from the community who provides this feedback is that if NIR is mentioned then we should clearly state that NIR doesn't give any special preference and any special constitution in the process of recognition or de‑recognition. I think NIR is out of scope and they are really mentioned only to state that they are out of scope of this document.
There were other concerns. Well not concerns but clarifications. For instance good faith, how that could be measured, and I think Athina responded that good faith is a sort of legal term and in this case it means that there are no undue delays and everyone sort of works along the process. The document doesn't say that you need to respond in three days. That's the the level of detail we don't want to be in the document that maybe the implementation procedures again more strict deadlines and things are defined, so good faith takes more tangible meaning in this case.
And there were concerns raised that yes, we don't want to create a completely closed system. There might be conditions, we don't know in the future, where addition of an RIR is helpful, but we also need to be aware of the enormous coordination costs of the system of coordinating between five RIRs that already has a cost, and so we need to keep this in mind.
With this, again the URLs, you have probably all seen to the red line changes, rationale, that's the document that I really encourage you to read because it also let's you know how we are making decisions, why certain things are in the document and why certain things are not in the document. The assessment is published, so please read this as well, and FAQ too.
With that I think I am showing the QR codes and stuff like this.
Please submit your feedback to the mailing list. This feedback is also recorded but mailing list is also important. What we are also looking at, it's not just consultive submission, if there is any discussion in the community that would be also interesting to see. So thank you for that.
Again reminder, not much time left, 7th November, that's when consultation ends. When we collect all this input and start working on this to create another version of this document.
And questions? And I invite my colleagues, so if there are any questions, we would be happy to answer those.
CONSTANZE BUERGER: If we are sure that your comments and concerns with going to the ASO AC meeting, and then we include in this the new draft of the new document. And if you missed something on the slides, please return to the mailing list and give us feedback until the 7th November, thank you for this.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thank you all three for this summary, and a clarification of the next steps, are there any more questions.
LEO VEGODA: I have a very short question, speaking for myself. This is all really good. You have done excellent work, collectively everyone. Let's assume it's not 100% perfect, and we have taken 25 years before reviewing ICP 2. Is this going to be reviewed on a schedule, or is it going to be there is an issue, we need to review it? How does that work in the future?
EUGENE BOGOMAZOV: The schedule was introduced, I think it's five years, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not every five years it will be reviewed, every five years the Council will look at the document and determine if review is necessary.
LEO VEGODA: Thank you.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Just a comment. I wanted to say thank you. I think this is excellent work, and I see that all the comments have been really considered, and I think the progress is good. Given the timeline and everything, I still think that the whole document might benefit from stress testing, meaning playing out various scenarios, and this is something that probably should be done with the next revision once you do it. And this should be probably done probably also at the ICANN or NRO level, or also some of that work can also be done here at the RIPE level. Because all this balances you're trying to find, especially about the level of details are kind of sensitive and by going through the stress test and see how that actually plays in practice, we might find that maybe better optimisations. Thank you.
ANDREI ROBACHEVSKY: Thank you for that suggestion.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Any other questions, comments? Nothing online. All right, well then thanks again.
ANDREI ROBACHEVSKY: Thank you, we're waiting for your feedback, thank you.
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MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks all the speakers, and especially thanks to staying within time. I was a little nervous, we had so many speakers, but it all went well, so we actually have sometime for AOB, any other business you'd like to bring up in this Community Plenary. I see two. You were first Remco.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Just a short announcement that the remaining customs have released the Internet protocol journal, so it's now in the hotel, you can find it in the coffee breaks. If you need something to read on the plane back home, feel free to pick one up.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Everyone is really curious why it's been stuck in customs for so long. What's in it.
REMCO VAN MOOK: This is Remco speaking as a former Working Group coach here. This is a lightning talk posing as a comment after which I will ask a question. The document RIPE 692, which is the RIPE Working Group Chair job description and procedures outlines an obligation for Working Group Chairs to ensure a process exists in the respective Working Groups who are appointing Chairs and terms and term limits and unappointments, all of that stuff. Despite that this document reached community consensus in 2017, in its eight years old at publication, and despite the best efforts of the RIPE Chair team not all Working Groups have actually implemented or published this process.
Can I ask the Chair team, this is the first part of the question, to provide an overview of whether various Working Groups are on this? And then my question to the community, so that is all of you: When would be ‑‑ how do we feel about this state, and should we maybe endeavour to harmonise this more?
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks, Remco. I have a couple of answers to this; it's funny you mentioned this document, because we are actually in the process of updating it at the moment, so there are some suggestions. There was one suggestion to make an addition to this document, and I looked at it and I thought, actually this is eight years old, as you pointed out, so it might actually need a bit more thorough overhaul. So, we are working on this. We are more specific detailed guidance on that specific point. It's currently being discussed by the Working Group Chairs and the Chair team and will then be sent to the community for consensus, discussion, as usual, that's the first point.
That's not the answer to your question, I just wanted to make that point because you bring up that document and we have actually done work on this.
To your second point, you can find, I understand you want to have an overview, but you can find the information about the terms, term limits, the Chairs, the selection process, on each Working Group's web page, every Working Group has a page that defines that, that has that information on there. Also, an overview of which Chair, when they started, when the first term was, when the current terms is and so forth. It's probably not as easily accessible as you would like to see it like on one page, but every Working Group has that information publicly available. So you can find it there. I can't answer the third part because that was a question to the Committee.
REMCO VAN MOOK: I will comment on your ‑‑ on part 2 of your answer. I actually had a look at that, and I had the hardest time piecing together and sort of finding a common denominator between these. And also, there is, for some Working Groups, there is list of okay these are the Working Group Chairs and this is when they got appointed, and that's it. And to me, that doesn't satisfy the requirements that we have set as a community.
MIRJAM KUHNE: It's amazing how many variations you can find on a simple selection process. It's indeed ‑‑ we have been working on harmonising it more. Thank you for pointing this out, and yes there is more work to do on this for the community and the individual Working Groups to actually work on this.
REMCO VAN MOOK: Thank you.
LARS LIMAN: Lars Liman here. You seem to be very engaged in having the talks rated. Can I suggest that you lower the bar for doing so. I mean when I reach the point that you have to bring out your phone to do the multifactor authentication to be able to vote for ‑‑ sorry, I don't, I give up. So, make it a little easier, please.
MIRJAM KUHNE: This was mentioned before, and we'll look into this, thanks.
JIM REID: Jim Reid, speaking for myself, and as a former Chair of a couple of Working Groups. I'd like to go back to a couple of points that Remco made before. As far as the problem of setting Working Groups not having a clear transparent appointment process; in my opinion, this is where you, Mirjam, get the big bucks. So you should be getting these Working Group co‑chairs into a darkened room and have some incentive, maybe a teaser, and encourage them to come up with a procedure and publish it. If they are not doing their job properly, there has to be consequences for it. And maybe if they are not going to do this, we have to say to them, sorry guys, you are not doing your job, you are not doing the role you have been appointed to, perhaps you should step aside and leave it to people who will do the job. I think it's that's straightforward. The question about harmonisation of things across the Working Groups, I strongly advocate against that. We tried to do this a long time ago and we could not get the Working Group Chairs collectively to reach a consensus view on that point. There was all sorts of bickering about this. Now, maybe it's changed a lot because most of the Working Group Chairs have changed since then but I would advise against that because the chances are you'll end up having a debate that is go onto the end of the universe, I would be personally much happier if each Working Group is left largely to its own devices. As long as they have got a clear and transparent process that works, leave them to it.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thanks Jim for the comments. Thanks for the first comment. I'll ask you for help to bring the teaser when I talk to the Working Group Chairs next time. I get your point, Your second point, but I also want to comment that this is extremely confusing for newcomers entering our community if it's not clear, if every separate Working Group has a separate process and it's not clear what the selection processes are, and it's kind of difficult to enter also and grow into leadership positions, but I got your point.
HANS PETTER HOLEN: Former Working Group Chair, former RIPE Chair, 30 years community member. Just a rhetorical question for everybody to think about: Why should two Working Group Chairs decide on the process to select them? That should be up to you guys, the community, and not to them.
RUDIGER VOLK: That's actually ‑‑ are ‑‑
JIM REID: Just a very quick point to what you said, Hans Petter; The community members do that by approving the process that each Working Group chooses.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Thanks, and congrats to becoming a Chair again as a NomCom member, I am happy. So two comments. I want to follow up on Working Group Chair process. I think the good stuff would be just like we do for the PC, indicate term limits, expiration of the term of a particular person, maybe that information can be gathered, I know it's a lot of work, but I guess each Working Group Chair can submit. So for example let's say I want to join, become a Chair of group X, I can see they have Chairs A, B, C and you would see which terms are about to end. That's one thing. The second comment, I do like talks a lot, I was a PC member for the terms, it was way he easier to update and submit my slides and I was also able to edit my bio or my title, for my talk I removed extra words from it. So maybe a suggestion, make sure these cannot be changed when the meeting ends. I am not saying I maliciously go back and change my slides to something completely different, but I imagine somebody's RIPE access account is compromised, this person can go ahead and change all of their past submissions through Pretalx, starting with this one. That's my suggestion, freeze that change process after the meeting is over. Thanks. Otherwise Pretalx is great.
RUDIGER VOLK: Yes, following up with Petter Holen. My memory of how we got here is in my opinion it was a bad process to start the discussion about establishing these procedures as a secret activity of the Working Group Chairs. And the discussions and how we ended up with the current thing, every Working Group does its own thing. I think was an act of desperation for well, okay, we need to get something and I think back in the old days it would have been much better to actually agree on a common scheme like I think Hans Petter was saying, but well, okay, we punted on that and that is haunting us this day and we should not repeat the errors of the old days this time. There is no question doing the discussion for consensus in the whole community is hard, and may look harder than getting the consensus within the Working Group Chairs group, but perhaps not.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Kuhne thank you. I want to cut the lines at this stage and give Niall the last word.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Working Group chairs, perhaps using the system we have for the PC, it works. Regarding NomCom Committee, I think, well I agree that, you know, randomised selection system is great in order to prevent a situation where there is not too much diversity, maybe we can update the algorithm so that it keeps in mind representation. You can include inputs. We do it for my hockey team depending on skill level and stuff like that.
And third, regarding childcare, I think it's a great thing. It would be terrible if it went away. Perhaps the reason why we're not seeing it as much right now is we're an ageing population. Maybe less people are of child rearing age, but it would be great to keep it, maybe it's to prevent it from being a cost to the NCC consistently, if it doesn't have the demanded it needs to be funded. We set a deadline, and if no one signs up or not enough people sign up, then we communicate whether that won't happen at a specific meeting. But please don't stop that one.
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thank you. Gergana.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: From the online participants. Simone says "Concerning the feedback form, could the limit on the free text comments on the form for each doc be increased? Currently it feels limiting and frustrates people who would actually like to provide substantive feedback." That's a suggestion.
And I also have a comment from Jordi Palet from the IPv6 company, "Agreeing with Hans Petter, it makes no sense that each Working Group has different rules. It's an overall community matter and must be a common process, the same as we have in all the other RIRs."
MIRJAM KUHNE: Thank you to both for your comments, Simon and Jordi. And Niall, please.
NIALL O'REILLY: RIPE vice‑Chair in Meratus. I'd suggest to address Remco's observations in a slightly different way from that suggested by Jordi, and that is that we have a RIPE policy for what should happen, and we look to each of the Working Groups to implement this in a conformant but individually determined way.
MIRJAM KUHNE: That gives us something to think about over dinner.
We will do that. Thank you.
That's it, thank you very much, thank you for all the speakers and all the comments and suggestions and the engagement. Before you leave don't forget there are two BoFs still happening after the coffee break. One in here and I don't know exactly which one, I think the DNS one is in here, the strategy one is in the other. And then the buses for the dinner again leave at 7:10, 7:20 and 7:30. And I hope to see you all there.
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